21st October 2001

Part 3

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Tayseer Allouni: So you say that this is treatment with the same action? They kill our innocent, so we kill theirs?

Usamah bin Laden: Yes, so we kill their innocents, and that is valid both religiously and logically. Because some of the people who talk about this issue, some talk about it from a religious point of view...


TA: What is their proof?

UBL: They say that this is wrong and invalid [laa yajuz], and for proof, they say that the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) forbade the killing of children and women, and that is true. It is valid and has been said by the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) (in authentic narration)...


TA: This is what we are asking about exactly! This is what we are exactly questioning ourselves about!

UBL: ...But this forbiding of killing children and innocents... is not general [mutlaqan] and there are other writings that uphold it [nusus ukhra tuqayiduhu].

Allah's (subhannahu wa ta'aala) saying:
"And if you punish (your enemy, O you believers in the Oneness of Allah), then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted..." [Qur'an (16):126]

The scholars and people of the knowledge [ahlu al-`ilm], amongst them 'Sahib al-Ikhtiyarat', and Ibn al-Qayyim (rahimahullah), and Shawkaani, and a lot of others, and Qurtubi (rahimahullah) in his tafseer, say that if the disbelievers were to kill our children and women, then we should not feel ashamed to do the same to them, mainly to detter them from trying to kill our children and women again. And that is from a religious standpoint, and those who speak without any knowledge in sharee`ah, saying that killing such a child is not valid and what not, and having full knowledge that those young men, that Allah has cleared the way for, didn't intend to kill children, but instead, they attacked the biggest center of military power in the world, the Pentagon, which contains more than 64,000 workers, a military base which has a big concentration of army and intelligence...



TA: What about the World Trade Center...?

UBL: As for the World Trade Center, the ones who were attacked and who died in it were a financial power. It wasn't a children's school! And it wasn't a residence. And the general consensus is that most of the people who were in there were men that backed the biggest financial force in the world that spreads worldwide mischief [ta`ithu fil ardi fasaadaa]. And those individuals should stand for Allah, and to re-think and re-do their calculations. We treat others like they treat us. Those who kill our women and our innocent, we kill their women and innocent, until they stop from doing so.


TA: But now, Shaykh Usamah, the media outlets and the security services also, say that you lead a network with a very big reach, which spreads over 40 or 50 countries as some say, and that the al-Qai`dah Organization has very big capabilities, and that you use those capabilities a lot to order missions. That you support many Islamic Organizations or movements, which are called in some places "terroristic." The question that we ask you is, what is the magnitude of the involvement of the al-Qai`dah Organization, or what is the type of involvement that exists between the al-Qai`dah Organization and with the personality of Usamah bin Laden?

UBL: Alhamdulillah. I say in response to what you said, and which I have stated before, that this matter isn't about any specific person [laa yakhussu al-`abd al-faqir, lit. doesnt involve the poor servant], and that it is not about the al-Qai`dah Organization. We are the children of an Islamic Nation, with Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) as its leader, our Lord is one (subhannahu wa ta`aala), our Prophet is one (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam), our Qibla (the direction Muslims face during prayer) is one, we are one nation [ummah], and our Book (the Qur'an) is one. And this blessed Book, with the tradition [Sunnah] of our generous Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam), has religiously commanded us [alzamatna] with the brotherhood of faith [ukhuwat al-imaan], and all the true believers [mu'mineen] are brothers.

So the situation isn't like the West portrays it, that there is an "organization" with a specific name (such as "al-Qai`dah") and so on. That particular name is very old. It was born without any intention from us. Brother Abu Ubaida (rahimahullah) al-Banshiri [Panjshiri, which is a a large valley north of Kabul populated by Tajiks] created a military base to train the young men to fight against the vicious, arrogant, brutal, terrorizing Soviet empire, which was a truth to all observers [al-baghi, al-ghaashim, al-mulhid, al-irhaabi haqiqatan lil mu'aamilin]. So this place was called "The Base" ["Al-Qai`dah"], as in a training base, so this name grew and became. We aren't separated from this nation [ummah]. We are the children of a nation, and we are an unseperable part of it, and from those public demonstrations which spread from the far east, from the Philippines, to Indonesia, to Malaysia, to India, to Pakistan, reaching Mauritania... and so we discuss the conscience of this nation [ummah].

These young men that have sacrificed their selves - may Allah accept them - in New York and Washington, those are the ones that speak the truth about the conscience of this nation [al-mutahaddithun `an dameer hathihi al-ummah], and they are its vibrant conscience that sees that it is imperative to take revenge from the evildoers and transgressors and criminals and terrorists [al-thalim, al-baghi, al-mujrim, al-irhaabi] that terrorize the true believers. So not all terrorism is restrained or ill-advised [mathmoom]. There is terrorism that is ill-advised and there is terrorism that is good feat [mahmood]. So, if we follow their words, the criminal and the thief feels that he is terrorized from the police. So, do we tell the police that they are terrorists and that they terrorized the thief? No, so the terrorism of the police towards the criminals is good feat, and the terrorism that is being exercised by the criminals on the true believers, that is wrong and ill-advised [mathmoom]. So America and Israel practice ill-advised terrorism, and we practice terrorism that is good feat, which deters those [yarda`] from killing our children in Palestine and other places...


TA: Alright, Shaykh Usamah, what is your strategy concerning the Arab states? What is being seen is that some Arab states have discussed what happened in New York and Washington and they have backed the American claims against you, and by standing behind what happened in New York and Washington. Some Arab states were most strong in their criticism, like for example the latest speech of the Saudi Interior Minister, who warned against you personally, and warned against the following of your curriculum [nahjikum] and what you say. So do you have a specific strategy for Arab nations? And what is your answer about the latest declaration by the Saudi Interior Minister?

UBL: I assure that we are a part of this nation [ummah], that our goal is the victory of our nation, and the struggle to lift mischief, inequality, irresponsibility and the acceptance of staying away from them [dhul, dhulm, hawaan, wal qunuu` `anha], and the removal of the man-made laws that America has forced on its agents in the area so that this nation [ummah] could be ruled by the Book that has been sent down by its Creator, Allah (subhannahu wa ta`aala).

So I listened to some of the words of the Interior Minister and he blamed us directly, also saying that "those people call Muslims disbelievers" [yukaffiruna al-muslemeen] - we seek Allah's refuge from this [ma`athallah min thalik]! We think that the Muslims are Muslims, and we don't call any Muslims disbelievers unless they specifically commit one of the well-known big wrongdoings [naaqitha] of Islam, while having full knowledge that this is one of the actions of wrongdoings in religion.

So I say that, in general, our concern is that this nation [ummah] unites either under the Words of the Book of Allah (subhannahu wa ta`aala) or His Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam), and the movement of this nation to the establishment of the righteous Khilafah of the nation [ummah], which has been prophesized by our Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) in his hadeeth saheeh [narrated by at-Tirmidhi], that the righteous Khilafah will return with the permission of Allah (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam), and the nation [ummah] is asked to unite itself under this Crusaders' campaign, the strongest, most powerful, and most ferocious [ashad wa a`naf wa ashras] Crusaders' campaign to fall on the Islamic nation [ummah] since the dawn of Islamic history. There has been past Crusader wars, but there has never been a campaign like this one before.

So Bush has declared with his own tongue (words): "Crusade attack." [Usamah bin Laden pronounced these words in English] So the odd in this is that they have said what we didn't have to say (that this war is a crusade). Some people also believe, as it is said about us, like the Minister's words, that we make takfeer on Muslims - we seek Allah's refuge from this [ma`athallahu min thaalik]! But, when Bush speaks, people make apologies for him and they say that he didn't mean that this war is a Crusade, even though he said himself that it was a Crusade!!

So the image of the world today is split in two parts, like Bush said, either you are with us, or you are with terrorism. Either you are with the Crusade, or you are with Islam. Bush's image today is of him being in front of the line, carrying his big cross while yelling. And I swear by Allah Almighty, that whomever walks behind Bush or his plan, has rejected the teachings [millah] of Muhammad (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam), and this ruling is one of the clearest of rulings in the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam), and I advise, like I have advised before and like a lot of scholars have advised before, that the proof for this is the Almighty's words while speaking to the true believers:

"O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyaa' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyaa' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyaa', then surely he is one of them..." and this is the ruling: "And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyaa', then surely he is one of them..." "Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists, wrong-doers, and unjust)." [Qur'an (5):51]

The scholars of knowledge have said, whomever takes the disbelievers as friends, protectors, and leaders [awliya'] has become a disbeliever [qad kafara], and the biggest signs of alliance [wilaayah] is favoring their victory [al-munaasarah], in speaking, discussing and writing [fil qawli, wafil sinaani wa fil bayaan]. So whoever walks behind Bush and his campaign against the Muslims, then he has disbelieved [kafara] in Allah (subhannahu wa ta`aala) and His Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam), and Allah also says in the verse [aayah] that follows the previous one:

"And you see those in whose heart there is a disease (of hypocrisy), they hurry to their friendship, saying: 'We fear lest some misfortune or disaster may befall us.' Perhaps Allah may bring a victory or a decision according to His Will. Then they will become regretful for what they have been keeping as a secret in themselves. And those who believe will say: 'Are these the men (hypocrites) who swore their strongest oaths by Allah that they were with you (Muslims)?' All that they did has been in vain (because of their hypocrisy), and they have become the losers." [Qur'an (5):52-53]

Ibn Katheer (rahimahullah) has said in his tafseer: There was a lot of Companions [Sahaabah] who didn't know that the spearhead of the hypocrites [munafiqoon] was the disbeliever [kaafir] and the hypocrite [munafiq], `Abdullah ibn Ubayy ibn Salul. So when the arguments happened between the Muslims and the Jews, and when the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) decided the punish the Jews, the spearhead of hypocrisy [nifaaq] (`Abdullah ibn Ubayy) moved and stood with the Jews, and he stood in the way of the Prophet (sallallahu `alayhi wasallam) with the Jews, so these verses [aayat] came down for this reason, and its likes. So the ones who take the disbelievers as leaders, friends, and protectors [yatawallawna allathi kafaru], then they have disbelieved in the Allah (subhannahu wa ta`aala) and His Prophet, so I add the following verse, to stress what I previously stated, because the one who has taken the disbelievers as leaders [tawalla al-kaafirin] has become an apostate [qad irtad], so this verse came down:

"O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allah, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower." [Qur'an (5):54]

So I tell the Muslims, to be very weary and careful from befriending Jews and Christians, and whomever helps them with one word, let him be devout to Allah, and to renew his faith so he can repent about what he did...


TA: Even the word??

UBL: Even the word, whomever upholds [yu'ayiduhum] them with one word...


TA: Falls into this apostasy??

UBL: Falls into apostasy [yaka`u fil ridda], a terrible apostasy, and there is no might nor power except with Allah [walla hawla wala quwata illah billah]...


TA: But Shaykh, a big part of the nation [ummah] falls into this...

UBL: No... No, it is not a big part. This is the rule of Allah (subhannahu wa ta`aala), and a clear statement in His generous Book, and it is one of the clearest of rulings!


TA: And the Arab and Islamic governments...?

UBL: Anyone that.... it is no use for you to say Amr or Zayd [meaning, "so and so"]. If you know the truth, you will know its followers. You will not know the truth by looking at men [laa ta`rif al-haqqa bilrijaal]. This is the Book of Allah (subhannahu wa ta`aala) which is one of the constants for us. If the world became full of people who want to change things in it, that won't affect us, and it won't change our convictions at all. It is either truth or it is mischief [baatil]. Either it is Islam or either is it disbelief [kufr]. So these verses...



TA: Just to make things clear, if you please. Isn't it possible to forgive those states that are considered to be impotent and weak [maghluub `ala amrihaa, lit. whos command has been defeated]. Let us take the state of Qatar, for example. The state of Qatar is a small state, whose Foreign Minister once said that he is surrounded by a supreme force that can wipe out his existence in all ease. Therefore, he is forced to become an ally of America and others. Isn't it possible to forgive such states? Like Kuwait, for example? Or Bahrain?

UBL: Concerning these matters, the matters that concern Islam, the matters concerning the killing of true believers [mu'mineen] and Muslims... so what the previously mentioned people do, who use compulsion [ikrah, meaning, force or being forced] as an excuse, that is not the same compulsion [ikrah] that is allowed by Islamic Law [sharee`ah]. That compulsion is not religiously allowed [yu`tabar shar`an

Now let's say (for example), if the Emir of Qatar came and he ordered one of his men to kill your son, then we came to that soldier asking him why he killed the son of brother Tayseer, so he says: "Well brother, I am forced to do it! [yaa akhee, ana mukrah] And you know brother Tayseer, that you mean a great deal to me, but I am obligated (forced to kill your son)! [ana mukrah]". So the blood of the Muslims will be lost with these kind of excuses, with this compulsion [ikrah] that isn't backed by the Islamic Law [sharee`ah]. The soul of that soldier isn't better than the soul of your son. If he is killed, he will be killed by violation and oppression [wa huwa mathluman], but he (the soldier) isn't allowed to obey the Tyrant (!) by killing your son. So this compulsion [ikrah] isn't religiously allowed.

This interview was obtained from Markaz Derasat and translated by 'Muawiya Ibn Abi Sufyan'

Source: http://www.islamicawakening.com/
We thank Islamic Awakening for permission to use and display information from their website.



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